In Search of the Elusive PUMAs

posted by Katha Pollitt on 08/26/2008 @ 11:35am

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Monday, August 25

Good Omen: the people sitting in front of me on the plane read The Nation! Anna and Russ from Washington DC are coming to the convention as tourists. Apparently a lot of people are doing this. Who knew? Anna and Russ are huge Obama fans, and (like everyone I will meet today) are confident he will win in November. For extra fun they've brought along their two year old, Juliet. Brave souls. "What do you say about George Bush?" says Anna, using her singsong mommy voice. "Do you remember what we call George Bush?" I imagine it's something not too favorable, but Juliet, who has clearly already begun her life in politics, just gives a diplomatic smile.

You're not supposed to write about interviewing cabbies, which is too bad because the extremely good-looking and cheerful Somali driver who takes me into downtown Denver has a lot of interesting things to say about American intervention in Africa that I'll just keep to myself. But I have to report that, like most of the taxi drivers I've met in the last year, he's for Obama. "America used to be admired all over the world. It's fixable! If foreign policy changes, America is America again." Put that way, it sounds so simple. "If he loses, it's because of race. When people say 'we don't know who he is' -- that's race. When people say, 'he's really a Muslim' -- that's race. He went to a Christian church for twenty years, but he's really a Muslim? What kind of a Muslim is that?" Not for the first time, I'm struck by how many ordinary people not only have as much political acumen as most pundits, but have learned to talk like them too. Why can't this driver go on TV, and Chris Matthews drive a cab?

While waiting to check in at the Comfort Inn, I look around for possible interviews. "Are you a delegate?' I ask a well-padded, carefully-casually-dressed man who is visibly suppressing his annoyance at the slowness of the check-in process. He smiles at my naivete. "Major Donor." While trying to fathom the mindset of someone who would describe himself this way--donor, ok, but major donor? Isn't that a little vain?--I latch on to Jeffrey and Brian, who look to be in their late forties, and tag along with them to the Convention Center for the Gay Caucus meeting, already well under way. Like many gays, they were Hillary supporters from way back; Jeffrey describes them carefully as "warming up " to Obama. What are their issues? "The economy," says Brian instantly. "The war." What about gay marriage? No! they say practically in unison. "Civil union is fine -- it's the benefits that matter," says Brian. I guess he doesn't read Andrew Sullivan. "There are a lot of other issues that matter more," adds Jeffrey. Such as? "Anti-discrimination laws, hate crime laws, Don't Ask Don't Tell."

The gay caucus is held in a large brightly lit underground room. It's well attended; the audience looks youngish, hip, attractive. A long row of credentialed journalists and bloggers are arranged at a prominently placed table, where they type furiously on laptops as a series of upbeat, energetic speakers culminating in charming, dynamic Rep. Tammy Baldwin -- take the podium.

How different is the rural caucus, held next door. Attendance is sparse; there's lots of polyester; no table of bloggers. In fact, there's only one other journalist here, a writer for the Dallas Morning News. As I come in, An older gentleman with an unfortunately soft and monotonous voice is going through a long list of McCain's bad votes on issues affecting farms and farmers (in this room, ethanol is good). But the next speaker, Tony Dean of Sportsmen for Obama, is riveting. Dean is short, white-haired, rotund and he has one of the great old radio voices-- rich, warm, genial, friendly--which is not surprising, because he is a radio announcer, formerly of stock-car and Nascar racing, more recently of Dakota Back Roads, a popular and much-honored show about fishing and hunting.

"I used to be a conservative Republican," he begins, and swiftly moves on his support for South Dakota Sen. Tim Johnson, his father's love of quail hunting and his mother's passion for fishing (every Saturday and Sunday!), and his long and interesting life in radio. I'm not sure where all this is going, but I could listen to him all day. And sure enough, there's a point: "This is the most important election of my lifetime. I'm not sure fish and wildlife can survive eight more years of George Bush." Dean talks about the ongoing destruction of the regulatory system that protects forests and water: "There's a clear connection between fishing and clean water." He talks about the reliance of small rural Dakota towns on the tourist dollars from hunters and fishermen and winds up with global warming: "It's real." Mallards that used to appear in vast numbers in South Dakota by October 1, the day the hunting season starts, now stay in Canada till January.

What a terrific speech! I not only want to vote for Obama more than ever, I want to go fishing too. In South Dakota. While it still has fish.

Next stop: the Equalitea hosted by Feminist Majority, NOW, the National Congress of Black Women and other women's groups. I get here too late for the speeches and tribute to Stephanie Tubbs Jones, but I do get a chance to chat a bit with Kimberle Crenshaw, legal theorist and law professor. Kim's field is affirmative action, and she has lots to say about what's wrong with the currently fashionable argument that race- and gender-based affirmative action should be replaced with preference based on class.

People talk about class when they talk about race, she tells me, but not when they talk about women. "Does class protect women? Did it protect Hillary? You can be a multimillionaire and still suffer the effects of discrimination because you're a woman." Most affirmative action is about government contracts in construction and the like, she goes on, not about getting into college or law school. In the six years since California passed its ban on affirmative action, women and minority-owned businesses have lost 1.4 billion dollars in government contracts. Yet white women voted for the ban, making white women the only demographic that voted against its own interests. Sigh! Read Kim's terrific take down of Ward Connerly in Ms. magazine at www.aapf.org.

I thought I might find some PUMAs at the Equalitea-- like every other journalist here, I want to track down those elusive felines. (Later I learn they have spent the day hanging with Chris Matthews, getting enormous amounts of exposure and making women look like lunatics.) In the powder room I run into Ellie Smeal and Mavis Leno. "What about those PUMAs?" I ask.

"There has to be some reality here," Ellie says exasperatedly. "Personally I think a lot of these people were McCain supporters all along. I know plenty of women who gave heart and soul to Hillary who are with Obama now."

"You'd think none of them ever worked in an office," adds Mavis. "You have to compromise!"

Smeal herself is totally on board with Obama: "This is a progressive, positive ticket." She heaps praise on Biden, whom she has known for years as a friend of feminism, a supporter of women in his own family, and an all-around wonderful person, who is "deeply, deeply against the war."

More later....

Comments (44)

"Personally I think a lot of these people were McCain supporters all along."

I have a feeling, if somebody looks into it, that six months from now, we discover that a lot of the PUMA "leadership"...

have ties to the GOP!

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 11:43am
about the state of our country and the general lack of respect toward authority and of course, BDS!

In another culture, say Palestine or Gaza.....Juliet would be breeding future suicide bombers!----Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/26/2008 @ 11:45am

Okay, let me get THAT straight...

You accuse those people of a "Derangement Syndrome"...

and then say that a little girl who doesn't speak glowingly of a politician will "breed future suicide bombers"?!??!?!?

And THEY are "deranged"?!?!!!

LOL

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 12:00pm
Not that your column wouldn't work without 'em, Katha, but please keep the zingers coming. Tracking down PUMAS, those "elusive felines"? Hilarious. "Major" donor? Who was it that said vanity kills? Chris Matthews as a cab driver? Priceless.

Posted by klean2 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:07pm
Happy-syndromes are named after those who have them and so I'm wondering why you support a POTUS that you say is deranged?

Posted by i'm nobody at 08/26/2008 @ 1:20pm
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/26/2008 @ 12:33pm

Okay, HAPP, referring to Anna, not her daughter.

You don't see a "mirror-image" Bush Derangement Syndrome?

The kind where you become so deranged at a kid "not respecting authority" (aka actually saying something bad against a politician you disagree with)...

that somehow leads to "breeding future suicide bombers"?!?!??!

BTW, if Obama wins, I'll be utterly fascinated to watch all the "respect for authority and the Presidency" that you shower upon him!

If not, might get concerned that MRS. HAPPY (your mom) might have bred a suicide bomber in another culture!

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 1:41pm
I don't know much about PUMA, but as I was walking my dog last night (8/25/2008), I came upon a small gathering in Chessman Park. The people that I saw there didn't look like Republicans to me. They were women and men from many different backgrounds and races. They spoke of meditation, how to get their voices heard, how if you called Hillary a w***e it reflected on all women, etc. They seemed respectful to me.

However, there were a couple of women Obama supporters there. In fact, they were the ones I asked what was going on. They were looking for racism, etc. to go tell other Obama supporters. After we talked a bit, they left very disappointed. The gathering wasn't at all what they expected.

Posted by AJH at 08/26/2008 @ 2:06pm
...about the state of our country and the general lack of respect toward authority...

In another culture, say Palestine or Gaza...Anna would be breeding future suicide bombers!

Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/26/2008 @ 11:45am

if we always respected authority america would still be an english colony.

as for anna, if i remember correctly, the religious zealots/nuts (which is what suicide bombers are) are on the right end of the spectrum, not the left.

Posted by jsingleton361 at 08/26/2008 @ 2:29pm
Wait a sec, what's the topic, are we talking about PUMA or suicide bombers here??

Or is there very little difference?

Posted by sloper at 08/26/2008 @ 3:08pm
"If not, might get concerned that MRS. HAPPY (your mom) might have bred a suicide bomber in another culture!" Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 1:41pm

Extra points for slipping "your mom" in there.

"MASK, get a hold of yourself.....your own derangement makes you less and less worthy of a debater....pretty ordinary now." Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/26/2008 @ 12:33pm

Hey Happy....your mom!

Posted by ADHD at 08/26/2008 @ 3:15pm
Posted by AJH at 08/26/2008 @ 2:06pm

H.T.O.T.D.?

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 3:21pm
Posted by ADHD at 08/26/2008 @ 3:15pm

I simply am applying ...HAPPY's standard.

If he, in the future, says something tawdry about a potential "President Obama" and doesn't "respect his authority"...

obviously he suffers from Obama Derangement Syndrome and "in another culture" might be a suicide bomber.

If on the other hand, he TOTALLY sticks to his principles and shows the same respect for a "President Obama" that he demands of Bush....I'll happily apologize.

But...I wouldn't count on it. You think he'll stop using "Magic" and "Half & Half" after January 20th, if Obama wins???

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 3:25pm
I find it hard to believe that any self-respecting feminist would be able to vote for or support John McCain, who, as president, would almost certainly appoint justices to the Supreme Court who will bring down the hammer on Roe v. Wade and other matters of importance to women. It is for this reason that I am suspicious of the motives of Hillary's so-called supporters who talk of doing just that.

Posted by robgo2 at 08/26/2008 @ 3:37pm
I actually have met PUMAs, and in fact know one very well; yes she does have "ties" to the GOP insofar as she is my wife; but also a lifelong Democrat, from a Democratic Party family. And boy she has a visceral dislike for Obama.

It's the ego, it's the radical liberal agenda, it's the frightening inexperience in foreign policy, it's that his first political campaign was launched from the home of two unrepentant terrorists who bombed the U.S. Capitol in the 70's.

It's all of that and more -- not least that he took advantage of the caucus system, and yes, used the race card.

Hard to say how many PUMAs are out there, they may just stay home rather than go McCain. But Obama is hardly the golden boy many assert.

Posted by J. Saxon at 08/26/2008 @ 3:57pm
Posted by J. Saxon at 08/26/2008 @ 3:57pm

A second H.T.O.T.D.?????

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 4:12pm
It's the ego, it's the radical liberal agenda, it's the frightening inexperience in foreign policy, it's that his first political campaign was launched from the home of two unrepentant terrorists who bombed the U.S. Capitol in the 70's. Saxon

Quick, Sax, run, don't walk to your bank & cash that GOP check for shilling before it bounces.

Posted by sloper at 08/26/2008 @ 4:25pm
"It's the ego, it's the radical liberal agenda, it's the frightening inexperience in foreign policy, it's that his first political campaign was launched from the home of two unrepentant terrorists who bombed the U.S. Capitol in the 70's."

When I hear off the wall comments such as this, I can't help thinking that there must be other issues that remain unspoken. (I'll leave it to others to read between the lines.) Your wife may call herself a Democrat, but if she really believes that Obama is a "radical liberal," she is clearly not in the mainstream of the Party, even amongst Hillary's supporters. Let's face it, the differences in Obama's and Hillary's policies are actually fairly trivial.

And as far as Obama's inexperience in foreign policy is concerned, I'll take that over the long experience of the likes of Dick Cheney and John McCain, who have pushed a truly radical agenda that has led the nation to the brink of ruin. Any Democrat who wants a furtherance of that agenda must be from the Leiberman wing of the Party, and your wife is welcome to follow that treacherous fool to the gates of Hell, where she just may run into McCain chasing Bin Laden .

Posted by robgo2 at 08/26/2008 @ 4:28pm
A second H.T.O.T.D.?????

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 4:12pm

It can't be. They're extinct!

Or.....are they? (creepy background music)

Posted by Benchrest at 08/26/2008 @ 4:41pm
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/26/2008 @ 4:42pm

And I'll just caal YOU out for "respecting authority" if Obama becomes President.

Don't want you becoming a suicide bomber because you keep calling him "President Half & Half"!

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 8:16pm
Sorry to intrude with an unsavory, and off-topic, remark, but it's not tremendously possible to take Pollitt's opinions seriously after her defense of Pelosi against Sheehan's primary challenge. Hard to forget feminism of that stripe.

Posted by claude at 08/26/2008 @ 8:17pm
"I'll repost this and let it sink in a bit.....about the state of our country and the general lack of respect toward authority and of course, BDS!"

I am sure many good Germans said the same thing.

Posted by onthehelm at 08/26/2008 @ 9:22pm
Also note that MASK didn't respond to my question asking if he's indoctrinating his own 7~8 yr old daughter! The implication is, probably!

And how about you? Who indoctrinated you to favor rich people and to be against the people's just aspirations?? Perhaps the first Happy? Or is it just about thickening a bank account?

Posted by Frank42 at 08/26/2008 @ 9:46pm
Posted by Frank42 at 08/26/2008 @ 9:46pm

That, and the fact that Mask doesn't have a daughter.

Posted by Benchrest at 08/26/2008 @ 11:46pm
Posted by J. Saxon at 08/26/2008 @ 3:57pm

Duly noted sir. I have no problems with your wife choosing to not participate in the process. Her choice. My mom has a visceral dislike for Hillary Clinton. I hope my mom wouldn't have punked out of the process if Hillary was nominated instead of Barack. It sounds like women, such as you describe, are behaving like children. They didn't get to have who they wanted on their team and now don't want to play anymore and takes their ball home with them. The difference here is everyone else has a ball to play with also and will gladly continue the game without them. It's all good though. I'm sure your wife will vote democrat for all the other offices or is she sitting those out as well?

Posted by k330k at 08/27/2008 @ 11:52am
What "radical liberal agenda" are we talking about here? Tax cuts for the middle class, health insurance for all, pulling out of Iraq, tax credits for college -- all pragmatic, middle-of-the-road stuff that's standard practice in pretty much any other first world country. Btw, you can't be a "radical liberal" -- it's a contradiction in terms. Liberals are by definition moderates.

Posted by cassamandra at 08/27/2008 @ 12:14pm
To Maskdelta:

H.T.O.T.D., I am honored. Just because I didn't support Obama does not make me a Troll. I am also not a PUMA. You weren't there and you don't know what those women were saying or looking for. In fact, it is people like you and those that are Obama supporters like you, that I no longer belong to the Democratic Party. I went through the process of being a delegate for Hillary. Being treated like a sub-human, called many colorful names, almost spit on by Obama supporters as they tell me Hillary was full of hate, I said that is enough. I couldn't believe that these people were fellow Democrats. Talk about eating your young.

As for who I will vote for in November, I am not stupid and I am much more gracious than you appear to be. I know what is important to this country and how I should vote. I just won't belong to a dysfunctional Party when it has people such as yourself in it. Perhaps, being less judgmental and not so full of hate you could see both sides of the issue. But, then again . . . .

Posted by AJH at 08/27/2008 @ 1:05pm
What self-serving, sanctimonious garbage. In search of the Elusive Pumas? We are all over the place, not hard to find at all. I am 50 years old and have never, ever in my life voted GOP, NEVER! You twist things and turn them to your own liking, just like the DNC/RBC committee did on May 31 and then try to make us sound uneducated or bitter.

I was once a Nation subscriber, but not anymore and never again.

Posted by kimvic1 at 08/27/2008 @ 1:17pm
Posted by AJH at 08/27/2008 @ 1:05pm

It flowed both ways, AJH...and if you aren't our resident HTOTD, I apologize...as I do if you are not a nutty cultists (as FRANKGRITS and HELENDAO are) who will not support Obama due to spite and dreams of 2012.

But HILLARY was the one who gave the Republicans the ad they're running right now on "McCain will bring experience, I will bring experience, Obama had a speech!"

Nor should we forget Clinton advisor, Bill Shaheen, who as early as DECEMBER 2007...."hinted" to CNN that Obama sold drugs in high school.

So maybe there are few rocks you shouldn't be throwing from the Clinton glass house???

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 2:45pm
Posted by kimVIC1 at 08/27/2008 @ 1:17pm

any relation to "nurseVIC"?

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 2:46pm
Tricky Dicky Nixon favorite stratagem was to disrupt Democratic Party events with fake groups like Puma. Karl Rove, Pat Buchanan, and Roger Ailes all cut their teeth in this type of campaign misdirection. And now you know why Fox News is the preeminent network in political spin. Puma may be legitimate but it sure smacks of a Republican set-up. Nixon was behind driving a wedge between McGovern and Humphery, similar to what is going on between Clinton and Obama. The negative ads asking why Obama did not pick Clinton as VP are right out of the Nixon/Ailes/Buchanan/Rove playbook. If you want more info on this distasteful subject read "Nixonland". Dick Nixon would feel right at home in today's Republican Party.

Posted by Bobzmcishl at 08/27/2008 @ 3:09pm
Posted by Bobzmcishl at 08/27/2008 @ 3:09pm

On campaigning perhaps, but he'd wonder what the hell happened to them on policies.

Remember this is the Nixon who...created detente with the Soviets...WENT TO CHINA...and gave us the EPA.

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 3:31pm
Maskdelta, I haven't been throwing stones in glass houses. I stood there and took the stuff that was spewed at me and never said a thing back to those people. I am not going to be quiet any longer. Too bad for you. I had been a Democrat for 30 years. I have been out in some of the worse places that you can think of canvassing for Democrats. In Colorado, we have a Make My Day Law where in someone can shot someone if they feel threatened by them coming on to their property. I have been told if I step foot on this man's driveway, I would make his day as I was handing out Kerry literature. So, please spare me about things flowing both ways. I have seen more unnecessary happenings on both sides to fill my life time. (In this case between Obama and Clinton and, yes, their supporters.)

What I am trying to say to you is back off. Not everyone is thrilled about Obama, but they will vote for him come November. My neighbor doesn't like him in the least bit, but he knows he has to vote for him because what is at stake.

So, call me a cultist, PUMA, whatever, believe me I have been called worse.

Posted by AJH at 08/27/2008 @ 5:08pm
Eleanor Smeal claims Biden is "deeply against this war." And Katha seems ready to take her word for it. Both should read this eye-opening and disturbing recounting of Biden's championing of this war, by Stephen Zunes.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/08/24/11124/

Posted by oisin at 08/27/2008 @ 6:38pm
The kind where you become so deranged at a kid "not respecting authority" (aka actually saying something bad against a politician you disagree with)...

that somehow leads to "breeding future suicide bombers"?!?!??!

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 1:41pm

Mask, you've got a pair of liberals traveling to Denver and she asks a two-year old, "What do we say about Bush?"

She's teaching her two-year old to hate. Specifically, she's teaching her to hate people who have different views. Why do they hold these view? doesn't matter, you are just supposed to hate them.

That's disgusting.

Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 08/27/2008 @ 7:07pm
These liberals actually think it's cute that they've taught their daughter to hate the right people. They anticipate that Katha will find it darling and write about it in The Nation.

Do you remember pictures of parents dressing their kids up in Klan sheets?

Do you remember the pictures of Palistinians dressing their kids up in fake dynamite vests?

It's all the same.

Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 08/27/2008 @ 7:32pm
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 08/27/2008 @ 7:07pm

Darin, you're nuttier than HAPPY.

So now kids have to be taught the old authoritarianism by which "You NEVER disrespect the President, dear. He's a great man, even if you disagree with some of his policies!"

Bullshit. I'll bet even YOU were jumping in there with the Bill Clinton jokes in the 90s.

And if Obama is elected? Do you think HAPPY will show ANY respect for a President Obama? (after calling the man "Magic" and "Half & Half"?)

This is the same hypocrisy you ALWAYS engage in, Darin. "Liberals/Dems are bad people for doing ____.....What? Some Republicans did it too?....Oh....Well, BOTH sides are bad ...even though I'll keep coming up with ways that ONLY Democrats are bad!"

Give it a rest.

"Klan sheets" and calling Bush a dope are "the same thing"?!!??!??

Geezus, you're a goof....and I'd say that if YOU were President!

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/27/2008 @ 10:11pm
In another culture, say Palestine or Gaza.....Juliet would be breeding future suicide bombers!

Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/26/2008 @ 11:45am

vapourize the towelheads!

Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 10:39pm
different views.

Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 08/27/2008

hahahahaha!

Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 10:43pm
happy,

you're right.

name calling is not correct.

the parents should teach their child that mr. bush is a very bad example,

and that good people don't recklessly destroy the lives and hopes of people all over the world.

Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 11:40pm
"But mommy, what did Bush do? I mean, I see his picture in the hallway everyday?"

Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/27/2008 @ 11:58pm

"many bad things, honey."

Posted by frosty zoom at 08/28/2008 @ 12:09am
Keep your eye on the ball, the one that reads "Election 2008."

It's the Supreme Çourt stupid! Ånd the Iraq war, you myopic moron! And the economy, imbecile! And our constitutional rights, cretin. And universal health insurance, nitwit! And global warming, geek! And how many more "ands" do you need to make you forget your hurt feelings and electoral defeat stiff-neckedness and get you to stop suling in your tent like Achilles. This is not the time to pout and say. "If I can't pick the players, I'm taking my ball and going home .

The 2008 electiion is not about Hillary and Barack; it's about the Democratic agenda vs McCain and the Cheney-Rove-Bush-neocon connection.

Posted by mortsel at 08/28/2008 @ 12:44am
In another culture, say Palestine or Gaza.....Juliet would be breeding future suicide bombers!

Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/26/2008 @ 11:45am

In another country people like you might be revolted against.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/28/2008 @ 04:36am
Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/27/2008 @ 11:14pm

HAPP, how ASININE can a person truly get?

Parents have been "teaching kids" to dislike politicians for CENTURIES. How many times you think some rich kid in the 40s heard his Republican dad say "That damn Roosevelt!"....or in the 70s heard "That stupid PEANUT FARMER!"?

But YOUR leap was even funnier. That "not respecting authority" (aka authoritarianism mixed with a healthy dose of PARTISANSHIP) that somehow "in another culture" leads to...SUICIDE BOMBERS?!?!?!??

But the BEST part will be if Obama wins...and the UTTER hypocrisy you'll show in calling a President of the United States everything from "Magic" to "Half & Half" to "dumber than a COON ass"....

and the fact that you won't be holding back if "the kids are around" either.

Go sell your bullshit somewhere else...nobody is buying.

Posted by Maskdelta at 08/28/2008 @ 09:13am
"I was once a Nation subscriber, but not anymore and never again."

Bye, have fun in Bittersville.

Posted by robgo2 at 08/28/2008 @ 5:59pm
about the kid learning to say negative things about bush from her parents being 'subversive' or whatever nonsense has been spouted by righties who took a wrong turn on 'the internets' and ended up here. i've met plenty of early teen kids, whose parents are republicans, who spout republican hate. if you ask them to explain any of the issues they're mouthing off about, they can't. so they just parrot what their kids say. it goes both ways, don't claim sainthood, once again, for the Repugnant Party.

Posted by vertigo23 at 08/31/2008 @ 10:44pm